PHOTO CREDIT: Anastasia Shuraeva
Episode 296
On this episode, number 296, we are discussing the culture of play, free play, and outdoor play in natural settings with Autistic individuals with two guests in Montréal, Québec. Seiun Thomas Henderson is an Autism and education specialist who has been working in the field for over 35 years. He is currently the Director of Research and Innovation at Giant Steps Interdisciplinary Autism Centre in Montréal, where he leads initiatives that bridge research, practice, and community impact. Margaret Fraser is the co-founder and co-director of Metalude, a nonprofit dedicated to creating more child-friendly, inclusive cities.
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This Episode’s Guests
A passionate advocate for outdoor play, Thomas is also a certified Forest and Nature School Facilitator and a fierce lover of the natural world. His work highlights the profound role that nature can play in supporting the growth, learning, and wellbeing of Autistics. Alongside his professional work, he is a Zen monk, integrating a reflective perspective into his advocacy for more inclusive, nature-connected educational opportunities and spaces.
For over a decade, Margaret has led outdoor play programs and supported organizations and institutions in making space for children’s play through mentorship, public space design, and participatory processes that put children’s voices at the center. Her work, shaped in part by her experiences with Autistic youth, aims to build a broader culture of play where every child can play freely.
What Sparked the Interest in Outdoor Play?
Thomas grew up in northern Ontario, spending a lot of time outside and is a fierce nature lover, spending time outside. He is deeply committed to a lot of work outside of the Autism space, including environmental protection, but has spent his whole career in the field of Autism and education. He’s always understood that play is truly an essential part of learning for all children.
When he did his Forest and Nature School training to be a facilitator, it gave him a framework and a language for understanding how land-based and nature-based time, learning, and play can be truly transformative for Autistic individuals and everyone. His team then launched some programming for their students, and it was truly transformative and liberating, as well as joyful for both the kids and for himself. Thomas says that working with Margaret for many years has inspired him in his work to make play happen in the outdoor space at Giant Steps.
Margaret’s first experience of being interested in play started in her own childhood growing up on Vancouver Island in British Columbia and playing outside. She returned from school one day and announced that she was done with school, which wasn’t working for her. She was very lucky to have a parent who worked from home and was up for homeschooling. She went out in the woods and built things and was able to try things and get messy. That was not supported in the classroom setting.
Later, Margaret finished her studies in Community Economic Development, thinking about how communities can be involved in acting for their own well-being and can facilitate that kind of change, keeping in mind children and play. That led Margaret to be trained in forest school as a facilitator by Mike Thomas.
What is Metalude?
Margaret works a lot on building a culture of play. Culture is all around us. When we start to use the language of the “play culture,” we can start to figure out what we do and don’t expect of different people in different spaces of how we’re going to play. At Metalude, they focus on how play fits as “the first form of participation” for children.
Think about when you open the door and are out of the home and out of your family. How are you engaging for the first time in a joyful way? It’s often through play, Margaret states. Play is a series of playful choices. It’s whatever sights, sounds, or sensations that person is drawn to and wants to experience on that given day, she continues. It’s about the individual experience. Margaret asks how that fits in the environment, in the community, and in our institutions.
In her work with Metalude, Margaret is able to speak and work directly with institutions and municipalities. Many people who choose to work with children don’t have great play spaces, so they look at what public spaces they can consider. This becomes incredibly important. Who can access these spaces and what is their play culture like?
There’s something called the “play cycle,” Margaret explains, rather than play being an “activity.” The first part of the cycle is called the “metalude” which is the moment of contemplation and reverie where anything is possible. It’s if you see a kid in a playground or an adult at a party and they look around and consider what’s possible before taking that first step.
Margaret points out that the metalude is inherently rich and diverse in possibilities, allowing people to take in their surroundings and discover something that resonates with them so they can play in a way that feels good, works for and challenges them, and meets their needs. At Metalude, they want to make that world rich in opportunity.
“Free” play
Thomas says that being a Zen monk does support being in the moment, which connects directly authentic play and “free” play. He stresses that what he and Margaret are talking about is “free” play that is directed by the child. In the Autism space, and certainly in schools providing services to them, Thomas says, there is a tendency to go the opposite way and become prescriptive in an attempt to teach social skills and how to play.
A child decides themselves how to play, and Autistics are actually very naturally inclined to play freely, but the opportunities aren’t there for them to do that, Thomas stresses. In a teen and young adults day camp group with individuals Thomas had known for many years, they went a park. After establishing boundaries, the individuals were given 90 minutes to explore and play. They all froze.
It was so obvious they’d never been given the opportunity to be free to play, Thomas realized. By the second day, they were fully out there exploring and playing. It was an “aha” moment for Thomas when he saw them get stuck. Speaking as a parent, I shared how our kids are so used to hearing instructions about how to play, and that Autistic kids do play differently. I shared how my son relaxes at home with an activity and how outside, we watch our kids so closely for safety reasons.
I wondered how the teens ended up playing on the second day of camp that Thomas described. He said they played how most kids would: finding bugs, throwing sticks, etc., and that play can serve a lot of different functions: regulation, learning, and more.
Be Weary of our Expectations
Seeing a room where play is invited, Margaret points out that things like throwing are not expected, and we start questioning safety. She asks why we expect people to play in the same pre-conceived way. If we want to facilitate a certain type of play, we are going to put children in environments where this is expected every day, and they might have an aversion to this.
We set a lot of expectations with the people who invite someone into play. One of Margaret’s two Autistic children loves to move and the other doesn’t. Offering them both the same type of play wouldn’t work. There are often things that are referred to as “play” in Autistic people that aren’t thought of as self-discovery and enjoyable to them, which is a very personal experience.
Risk is also very personal, she continues. There’s a difference between a risk we take intentionally with an understanding that there may be a consequence versus a danger when we encounter something truly hazardous in the environment that is beyond our awareness. We can take steps to create a readable environment where free play is encouraged.
Thomas adds that there’s a range of awareness and understanding in Autistic kids. Some are very risk averse and taking risk is very developmentally important as we learn from falling and scratching our knee, for instance, but that can clash with sensory interests where a child who seeks intense vestibular and proprioceptive input can do things that look very dangerous. Of course, in forest school they had a lot of kids who just wanted to throw rocks and sticks, so they set up targets and made games within that context to consider safety, he explained.
“Floortime” Play
I added how kids go through sensory play, object play including cause-and-effect play, then imaginary play, which also can look different in Autistic kids, and how staying in the moment and having that attunement with them is so important to let the child know that you’re there with them and don’t have an “agenda.” Regarding risk, we always want to challenge and expand in Floortime. We scaffold where they are developmentally, stretching them a bit, developmentally, when they’re regulated.
Most importantly Dr. Gordon Neufeld talks about how play has no consequences and is in a bubble which is practice for real life. We want to be inviting the child’s ideas to come forward, following their lead, seeing what lights them up. Like my guests, I believe that low demands allows our children to explore.
Margaret said it’s so important to mess around and find out what you enjoy in play. Regarding the desire to have opportunities to scaffold development, she points out that because development can look different, we don’t want to instrumentalize play for our adult goals and expectations. Instead we need to just be present, connect, and share joy and a sense of wonder.
By doing this, she continues, we’re pushing back against developmentalist frameworks that say children should be doing something by a certain age. We have to say, “No” and we might go to places you didn’t imagine we could along the way. It’s been such joy for her to watch Autistic play.
Inviting Play Outside of the Home
Margaret shares that the Center for Urban Ecology developed a project to see a global vision of play called Vision 360. Metalude brought in examples of inviting play outside of the home. What kinds of play areas exist? You can watch water swirl and go down the drain. If you’re not even able to be present and just exist in that wonder in the moment, you miss out on that and don’t value a child’s experience and we miss how to support them.
Thomas adds that it’s certainly almost irresistible to jump in and try to structure play with this population. He points out that the developmental pathways are highly atypical. You may have a child who has highly imaginable play but also needs to do stacking rings. When we try to layer on frameworks, we can eliminate opportunities for complex play as well as for the simple opportunity of watching water swirl. We can be open to all types of play, he insists.
I wondered if either of them have been to Holland Bloorview Kids Rehabilitation Hospital in Toronto. I shared a video of my son wandering in the outdoor play space there when he was little. Thomas said that him and Margaret talk a lot about “loose parts” in play such as having access to sticks and natural elements that you can use which tend to be discouraged in more structured settings.
Margaret saw the opportunity for exploration and agency that this kind of environment can offer. There’s no scarcity in the sand, for instance, where you would have to instruct kids to share. There’s plenty of space and plenty of sticks. This can impact how the adults interact. Because there’s more sand, I’m not worried about what you do with it, for instance.
Sometimes as adults looking to make environments and materials for play, Margaret continues, they are looking for “the thing” to support the play, keeping to a budget. The more we invest, the more we are invested in that thing. We want people to be interested in that thing. In a natural environment, you can mess around, which opens up a whole new world of possibilities. This is different from exploring sand in a sand bin in a classroom where 20 other children need to have a turn.
I added that it also didn’t look like a contained sandbox even though there were natural barriers. Last week, in fact, at my son’s occupational therapy appointment, he kicked down the divider holding up the side of the sand box on the OT’s back patio on the way out, and at school, he likes to get the sand out of the sand box they have in the back yard, which is not permitted. At the sand pit area at Holland Bloorview, it didn’t seem like there is a rule that the sand has to stay in that specific area.
Thomas adds that none of these restraints are put on a child in natural spaces. On a panel advising on neurodivergent play that he participated in, there was a discussion about how there is a strong tendency in Autism–both inside and outside–to design spaces that are not overwhelming, which is information impoverished. The “running towards the sewer” is an essential part of exploration, Thomas points out.
On top of that, my son got the opportunity to move and get the proprioceptive input of kicking the sand, I added, which is all supporting his sensory integration as well.
Setting Up Opportunities in Outdoor Play
Before starting Metalude, Margaret worked outside in public spaces including an old railway yard being revitalized. The mission was to find the things in that space that would become inviting and then engage with it, with an attempt to protect biodiversity. If a child ran outside and noticed there were so many flowers and yelled, “I’m going to make soup!” that impulse is valid. How can we invite it in a way that we can respect the scarcity of the flowers there, Margaret considers.
They had all of the adults recognize ragweed and then helped the kids to recognize it, and you can pick ragweed before it contributes to allergies later in the season. They’d gather to say hello then go play and notice what’s around. The ragweed would come up a lot, she says. It wasn’t put there intentionally, nor to support play, but they were able to integrate it by making ragweed soup, making it into paste, feeding it to snails, and anything else they wanted to do. This led to having community members then learn from the kids that it’s ok to pick ragweed.
Other considerations included, “Is there a way kids can dig? Where do we need to say no? Can they dig somewhere else? What about for climbing trees? Where can they do that? How can we make this a “yes” zone, despite having some restrictions?” We can be clear about expectations from the start and have boundaries so kids know the framework within which to do whatever they need to do in play, Margaret assures.
Natural Spaces Offer Rich Learning Environments
Thomas said that it’s very clear to him that natural spaces provide environments that are sensory regulating and are much more effective than things like snoezelen rooms. There is a lot of science about how spending time outdoors is regulating. As an educator who works in formal education, outdoor play and access to nature are almost seen as “breaks.” Thomas says that we need to flip that.
Recess isn’t a break from learning. Recess is rich learning, and time outside in play is rich in learning. We need to flip a little bit our thinking about what’s happening when we’re outdoors as well because then we don’t value it in the same ways if we’re seeing it just as a break from important work.
I added that I loved how Margaret said that the impulsivity in play is valid and provides opportunities for having free play without expectation–facilitating for safety, of course.
It’s really important for anyone who wants to support someone else’s play to be able to take that moment for yourself and say, “So how do I like to play?”
Rich Play Inside Versus Outside
I gave the example of my son playing with the slime at the Floortime intensive in the summer and I was trying to elicit some interaction with him by saying, “Ewww! It’s so messy!” and they were suggesting that my son might be feeling that his type of play is unacceptable. Instead, join him in it and allow that exploration because there’s a lot of emotional stuff that he’s processing through his puberty and he needs to explore burying things in the slime and getting dirty. I asked Margaret, “What’s the difference between buying a big tub of slime or making your own slime and playing outside?“
For Margaret the difference with the outdoors is about the unexpected happening. We often have the illusion that we can control the environment. “Less prep, more presence” is a saying Margaret likes. When she invests her time in something being a good experience or being interesting, she finds herself pushing more for it to be interesting, even if that’s not what’s drawing someone’s attention in that moment.
The difference is that there are infinite possibilities outside, she continues. So many things are there, can be combined and can change, and it’s an environment that changes. The leaves change. The animals there change. It invites us to be in connection with more than our home environments and family units. It also removes the pressure to have thought of all the things that are perfect for this person, because everyone is different every day of their lives.
Let them go, Margaret suggests. They’ll figure it out. It’s not about me having the right answer or experience in this moment. It’s about saying, infinite things are possible. Go figure out what you’re interested in in this moment. There is an idea that parents think they need to provide all these opportunities and buy all these toys. Have that open space of seeing what interests them and be present. Thomas adds what an opportunity it is to share joy in the moment through these experiences.
This episode’s PRACTICE TIP:
Let’s focus on “free” play with our child.
For example: Do you find yourself directing your child’s play or preventing them from exploring? Other than for safety issues, such as eating rocks, etc., let’s explore outside and see what they gravitate towards and follow our Floortime principles.
Thank you to Thomas and Margaret for sharing their experiences on promoting free play in natural environments. If you found this episode helpful and informative, please consider sharing it on social media!
Until next time, here’s to choosing play and experiencing joy every day!
