PHOTO CREDIT: RDNE Stock project
This Episode’s Guest
German Psychologist Sibylle Janert is a DIRFloortime® Expert and Training Leader who teaches DIR® courses in the UK in English and in German in Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. She also offers Floortime coaching to families over Zoom in both English and German, as well as offering family intensives in her beautiful village. She runs supervisions groups, a mastermind group, and monthly webinars on relevant topics in German. She has also published several books for parents and for professionals about autism from a relationship-based, developmental, multi-cultural, and trauma-informed perspective. Her next book on early exploratory play is due to be published in early 2026.
This Episode’s Topic
At the October 2024 ICDL DIRFloortime® conference, Sibylle presented on Following the Child’s Interests and I thought it would be great to combine this topic with another she presented at a couple years earlier called What’s in the Box, which is also part of following the child’s lead. In this episode, we really want to dive into the emotional component of what the child is interested in and how we follow that.
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What is the Interest?
Sibylle says that her interest in following the child’s interests and figuring out what’s in a box with a child gets into her interest in the unconscious. When we talk about a child’s interest, we tend to get stuck at the surface, whether it’s trains, fire extinguishers, or cars, she says. What is it about cars that is so interesting? It might be unconscious, she speculates.
At her conference presentation, she talked about how so many children are interested in water and showed three videos of children playing with water, but all three interests were different. One was interested in water leaving the vessel. Sibylle wonders if it is about psychological feelings of the child leaving the mother or the mother leaving the child?
The second video showed a child who liked splashing water. Sibylle wonders if it is about the water that’s running free meeting the other water and becoming one? The third video was about the movement of the water in the vessel. These were three very different interests, yet all were interests in “water”.
Interests have an Emotional Tone
When we look at these emotional nuances of feeling, Sibylle continues, we meet the child and who they are much more intimately than just providing lots of “water” activities. I shared that my son loved kicking and splashing water, running around a splashpad, and feeling the water dumping on his head. It might be more of a sensory need. I asked how she connects the sensory interests in water with the unconscious.
Sibylle responded that the sensory interests always have an emotional tone. She wonders if my son likes to be inside. Can she support her hypothesis in another context? Does he like to be enveloped with clothes, blankets or with light? She can figure out how he sees the world. I said that she is correct!
I shared that since my son loved trains when he was little, everyone would buy him train shirts, books, and videos of real trains, but it was watching the model trains move that he loved. He liked watching things move and that was a way to get vestibular input through his visual system. He also loved the stories of the characters in Thomas and Friends.
Just to say he’s interested in trains lacks that emotional component. Sibylle responds that this is the idea in our head. We need to observe the child to figure it out and guess, and get it wrong. This helps us learn more about the child.
The child will think that someone is trying to figure out how he sees the world and this is about making the child feel seen, Sibylle emphasizes. She said we can look from the outside from a sensory perspective, but we can lose the emotional meaning. Instead, let’s see what it looks like from the inside of the child. This has us wondering what the emotional meaning is for the child.
Following Interest or Need?
In the case of the child’s interest in watching the water move, Sibylle might ask the child if it’s going in the right direction. She currently working with a child who could pour water 24/7. It’s clearly an interest of the child, but she considers if it helps the child develop? He might like doing that so much that it becomes a habit and he shuts out everything else. It’s one thing to do it to regulate and relax, but to do it all the time at the cost of learning new things could be problematic, Sibylle considers. We can consider how to fulfill the child’s need that they are fulfilling through that interest, but fulfill it in a more relational way.
Inside the Box
When we attune to the child, they see that we are trying to figure out how they work, and they figure out that there’s something for others to figure out about them; they see that there is a self to figure out and that they can develop this sense of self, Sibylle argues. It is important for us to see that there is somebody there, and that they see the world differently than us.
Sibylle has become very fascinated by opposites in the development of mental functioning. It’s interesting to be aware that we can look from the outside such as looking at concrete objects–this is often how we begin, but it’s much more important to look at how things are going in the inside.
This is why she is so interested in boxes and what’s inside. It’s one of the bases for where symbolic understanding begins, Sibylle believes. We put something inside the box and we know it’s inside. Are they anxious if it’s still there or wonder if it’s gone. Is it gone? Is it inside? Where is it? They are emotional tones that have an anxious tone, too. Is it gone because somebody else has got it? Has it found friends or is it alone and abandoned? People are often not so conscious of how interesting this is to put our shoes in the emotional world of the other, she asserts.
Humans have the capacity to put ourselves in someone else’s shoes to figure out what’s going on inside another person. We all have inside worlds that nobody else can see and they’re often unconscious due to our past and experiences we’ve had.
Being Emotionally Curious
This adds a lot of richness to meeting the child at where they are developmentally (the D in DIR®). We’re adding that rich component to it because we’re not only empathizing what they child is feeling, but we are also guessing what they are feeling and experiencing. We can always guess and get it wrong. We often may not know if they are not reactive, but we seem to always know when you got it right, because we get a communication cue–a signal or eye contact. Sibylle says they can feel that you got them, and realize that, “There is a me!“
We can become a bit greedy, Sibylle suggests. The adult can do their best to make contact with this child, but what’s sometimes is missing is taking your time to just “be” with the child and just feel it. You are looking for a reaction, but instead, look at the child. Why are they bashing their hand on the surface of what they’re sitting on? We can copy it to see what it feels like.
Did I get it right? Will there be a response? Can I get some information? The child can feel that there’s somebody trying to “find me”. It can only be felt. If we do too much, we might miss it. We need to figure out the emotional state of where the child is, Sibylle insists. It’s a mystery that we need time to figure out.
I hope that listeners are having a light bulb moment because of the way Sibylle is describing “following the child’s lead” and “slowing down and stretching out the interactions“. Why are we slowing down? We often say that we are slowing down to give the child a chance to respond, but it’s also about what she just described.
It’s about trying to “be” with another individual and getting a sense of what they’re going through by putting ourselves in their mind and making our best guess. Watching, waiting, and wondering about their experience is difficult–especially for the kids who move fast and for kids who “seem” to not be “doing anything”, Sibylle adds.
Feeling “Felt”
For Sibylle, a very helpful verbal hook to hold on to is to think about “feeling felt.” Her colleague is feeling lost with a child who isn’t “helping her” figure things out because there seems to be no cues coming at her. The therapist feels completely abandoned and lost, like trying to get a foothold on black ice. We need to be friendly with that feeling, Sibylle states, otherwise we get afraid and get into fight, flight, or freeze mode ourselves. You can “panic” a bit when you don’t know what to do with such a child.
Instead, we can become interested in some of these challenging feelings. If you become interested in a painful feeling, without wanting to make the painful feeling go away, it becomes a container to hold the feelings and we can look at it, Sibylle explains. Many of our kids are very insecure inside themselves. Her colleague was looking for the child, but Sibylle suspects that the child felt that the therapist was looking for something from her, which is pressure-inducing. Sometimes we need to talk to “make” a container by communicating that we are just there with the child so they can relax. We can simply comment that the child is just sitting there.
Water has no form unless you give it a container and there could be a link. Sibylle’s sense is that this is about human mental possibilities, which is important. If we’re not careful, we can end up in a “them” and “us” mindset with autistic clients. If we instead give that up, we can empathize with the client and forget all that’s been written about autism because it can be a trap, Sibylle emphasizes.
I hope that listeners and/or readers realize how profound everything is that Sibylle is talking about. Having that safe space for a child to be able to open up and share themselves is essential. We always talk about not putting demands on the child. When a practitioner is lost and can’t get information out of the child, they feel a sense of urgency and the child feels the pressure which is a demand. It doesn’t even have to be a question. It can simply be the way you stand over them or the look on your face.
The autistic experience is different, but all of our experiences are human. We can all relate to times when we felt this way or another way. I remember very vividly as a child ignoring things around me, even though I knew what was going on and on purpose ignoring things that people wanted from me. I would wait until it was explicitly asked of me. I wouldn’t feel the need to offer. (I’m just trying to relate the experience of a child being with a stranger in a therapeutic setting feeling that someone wants something from them.)
Emotional States of Mind
Sibylle talks about the different emotional states we can be in, and how sufficient words can be to describe them. We assume everybody has a sense of self, but Sibylle remembers terrible times when she was young and felt that she didn’t exist. Our autistic clients who seems unreachable might be feeling like a cloud, or like water without a container. If you want too much, there isn’t a form to give it. It’s why she’s so fascinated with containers, and skin is also a container. It’s such a crucial sensory organ.
Do we first feel something emotionally or have a sensory experience, Sibylle wonders. Perhaps we only have the way to describe things from the outside. It’s harder to put the inside state in words. We assume that everyone knows the feeling of feeling excruciatingly insecure in the world and not knowing who they are, Sibylle continues.
Sibylle says that we have lost wondering about emotional psychic states of mind, referencing Lorna Wing‘s attempt to create a third category–learning disabilities, psychological problems, and then autistic. The unconscious makes up most of what we are as humans. Our cognitive and rational thinking is only about 5% of who we are, Sibylle explains. The rest is the dreamlike category and emotional.
When we talk about forming that relationship with someone in Floortime, you can’t replicate or describe the connection. You feel comfortable with another person, or you don’t. You “feel felt” and you feel that the other person isn’t wanting to take something out of you or put something in to you, Sibylle explains.
A Parent's Scenario
I gave Sibylle a scenario of a family who has a 5-year-old girl who comes home from school throwing everything in the house, and can throw for hours. The mother has a new baby and wonders what to do, as she feels very overwhelmed. I first thought that she loves to watch things move like my son did. Sibylle would be very aware that she needs to find out quite a lot more. She wonders if the mother wonders what it feels like for the daughter to come home to a mother whose hands are full, holding the baby–who, of course, needs to be held.
Making mistakes is so important, Sibylle says. Trying things out and getting it wrong allows you to learn, wondering why something didn’t work. Here, the child begins to be a bit of a partner in trying to figure out what is going on inside of them. Sibylle has become anxious about throwing because she’s seen it become a habit in some children that doesn’t serve anything productive. Some people would say let’s follow the child’s interest, but she would try to contain the throwing.
You can follow the interest of “lines”. A boy, around the age of 8, said to Sibylle that he wanted to “understand lines”. Sibylle would want to know if the running around the house is regulating or dysregulating for the child. Of course, Sibylle feels that the child knows she is being displaced by the baby and understands what it’s like being displaced in the world. But does she also realize it’s wonderful to have a sibling?
Perhaps the child came home from school distressed and is letting out all of her stress. You could make a game out of throwing things into a bucket. Sibylle is saying that we can go deeper and put ourselves in the child’s psyche. The child might sense that they’re doing something wrong and that they are not being accepted by the stressed parent. You could then try to alleviate the stresses the child is feeling in their mind and body, Sibylle suggests.
You can also take apart the throwing. Is it the feeling in the joints of the arm and shoulder, is it the movement of running around, or is it the visual piece? Sibylle knows a family who live like in a jail because they had to put nets over all the windows since the child threw glass into windows. Perhaps for this girl, holding her tight might provide her with the input and recognition or sensory input she might be seeking. Sibylle also wonders if the child can have the experiences they’re craving in a way that’s more relational?
Sibylle had the parent give the throwing child a bottle to throw and then put it up on the shelf when “throwing time” was finished. Eventually, the child would pass the bottle to the father and ask him to put it up. He had the desire the throw, but he maybe didn’t want to as well, Sibylle speculates. So much of being human is about contradictions. I described how Carly Fleishmann would clear the shelves in the fridge when her family was sleeping yet later typed that she felt compelled to do it even though she didn’t want to and knew it was wrong. There are many co-occurrences with autism.
Occupational Therapist Gretchen Kamke had talked about sensory modulation in We Chose Play with me when discussing a video of my son running and crashing into mats. She suggested slowing down when he crashes and crush him, “making a sandwich” to give him input before he went back to run again. Being too upregulated and excited can be dysregulating. For a child with motor planning issues, Sibylle has become very interested in the hands, as well. She has recently started sitting with a child and doing a large movement of scraping with big arm circles, guided by an adult behind them like a “container” and has found it is very rhythmical and regulating for a child.
The boy makes a nonverbal cue with his body to do it again, so she knows that he likes it. It’s almost like a tactile song. You cover space and sometimes the children are restricting their movements being very tense, so the big movements, reaching out from their body helps them feel a different way in their body. This has become part of Floortime, too, for Sibylle. Instead of following the lead and throwing, she’s looking at the meaning that throwing has for them emotionally, psychologically, and sensory-wise and trying something else that allows the child to feel that–whatever that need is.
I want to thank Sibylle for being my guest. Listeners can find out more about Sibylle and her perspective on her website, which also includes a large online library on relevant topics for this client group including interactive and early exploratory play, and everyday questions around structure and time at home, on eating, toileting and sleeping.
This week’s PRACTICE TIP:
This week let’s look at the emotional intent of our child.
For example: If your child is interested in puddles, try to figure out what aspect of the puddle they are interested in. Is it seeing their reflection in the water? Is it figuring out how deep it is by stepping in it? Is it watching the water splash? Is it the powerful feeling of having an effect on it when stepping in it?
Thank you to Sybille for sharing her ideas and thoughts about following the child’s emotional state. I hope that you learned something valuable and will share it on social media.
Until next time, here’s to choosing play and experiencing joy every day!
